TractionKiting.co.uk

i have been giving this a lot of thought over the last day. if ever folk mention seatbelts peeps jump in with safety concerns. if we look at major buggy accdents in scotland over the last year, how many were without seatbelts and how many with - it seems as though not wearing a seatbelt is more dangerous.
that argument/discussion aside, again, fixing yourself to the kite is a much bigger and riskier step than attatchinjg yourself to a buggy!

The reason we may have less accidents with people who are using seatbelts is maybe because they know the dangers because they have been told about it?
Not only that but there are far more people buggying without seatbelts than with.

O.

I agree with Owain, there are much more oppertunities for people to report injuries who wernt wearing a seatbelt than those who were. I.E if there were say five or six serious injuries without seatbelts last year, that COULD be say 5 percent of those who dont buggy with a belt. However five injuries involving seatbelts could account for the majority of buggiers who regularly use belts in Scotland...

If that makes sense....

so remind me again, perhaps in a simple list, what are the ADDED dangers of wearing a seatbelt?

Do you need to ask Andy?

The biggest and probably the main reason it is not usually recommended is because you do not get pulled clear of the buggy. This can cause you to be dragged on your face with a shoulder or arm trapped (worse case scenario).
Its all down to knowing how to land IF you get the chance too I guess.

I suppose its all seen as if you get away from the buggy then you have a chance to land on your feet or get yourself in to a position where you can control the kite a bit better, this isnt always the case though as we all know.

The simple added danger is if you get it wrong it can seriously go wrong i.e. flipping over backwards and getting hit on the back with the back axle, it can happen, the footage of Rob Hills doing a back flip on landing is around somewhere.

This is going off track from what I originally started the thread about but at the end of the day its down to personal choice and if you feel comfortable attaching yourself to the buggy or not.

I know personally if I see someone strapping in to a buggy I like to know that they know how to get out of the buggy if they do turtle or at least know how to land a basic lifting off the ground so they can ride away from it whether they mean to go up or not.

O.

so when you unexpectedly get pulled out of the buggy you have enough time to get your feet ready to land running do you? the 2 times this year i got lofted out i landed fairly heavily wheras if i have messed up with a seatbelt on its generally a dragging situation on my front - less chance of bone breakages there. oh and didnt rob hills have a towel rail? if so thats the issue and not the seatbelt.
all i am saying is that we all make the assumption that its more dangerous wheras its probably not. why not question your beleifs - i have done so with this and actually think the opposite now based upon reported injuries and my own experience. the dangerous thing is attatching yourself to a kite!
and what are the facts then - mr b has had 2 major injuries now and he is an experienced kiter - no seatbelt. what other major buggy injuries have there been of late
THIS IS WHY I HAVE TO ASK OWAIN - the facts dont back up our `perceived` risk of seatbelt use.

If you feel its safer then you get someone with little kiting experience and strap them in, will be in interesting experiment.

I still believe there can be a higher risk of injury if you start to seatbelt yourself in. The reason is most people that use a seat belt are planning on going airborn.
Maybe if you use a seatbelt to simply hold yourself in to the buggy then there may be an argument there but Im not sure. It might make you feel safer which then leads you to take out a bigger kite and in the end hurting yourself.
There has to be some reason why seatbelts are banded when competing in races, maybe the fact the buggies can weigh a fair amount.
Its been a long time since I have come out of my buggy, when riding the flexifoil I always buckle up whether Im going up or not just because I feel more comfortable.
With the libre race buggy I would prefer to be pulled out because I don't fancy the weight of the buggy being on top of me. The time I got lifted out of the Libre I got pulled up and spun round with my legs in the air and my hands on the sand, I did manage to get myself spun around and then scudded on my bum and came to a holt. Maybe I was just lucky.
I still stand by my thoughts that someone just learning to buggy should not be strapped in because of the risks of turtling, broken collar bones are a common injury because the pilot puts there hand down to stop them from rolling and snap! Its safer to keep your hands and arms near your chest when you roll over but human instinct is to put your hand out.
The other injury we have had not that long ago was with James, he got lifted by a 2m or was it a 3m? PKD Buster which caught him out by suprise, he came down hard and knocked himself out! Luckly there were plenty of people around to help him, if he hadnt been seatbelted in, maybe he wouldnt have knocked himself out.
I just feel that if you get pulled out of the buggy then you have a chance of getting your legs down for a landing. Seatbelted in you have to land on the wheels ideally pointing downwind to allow you to roll, if you go up and the kite is behind you, you run the risk of flipping the buggy, whether you have a towl rail on or not I would say something is going to dig in to your back, either the seat or the axle.

Maybe this is just one of those things that we will agree to disagree on.

O.

edit: Split this thread since its going off on a different route than the original thread. Would be interesting to hear what other buggiers think.

I am going to post my general views on the above and people can draw their own conclusions.

1). Strapping into a buggy has benefits as far as controlling the buggy with you're hips are concerned. Wether you have the ability to use this added control positively is a different matter.

2). Landing in a buggy whilst in the upright position will provide some protection from compression injuries to you're back as the seat bolts axle etc etc all cushion you're impact. However, uncontrolled impacts especially turtled could cause injuries. Now, this is minimal on a regular unmodded flexi but with a towel rail, or with aaany kind of high side rail the risks to back / rib injuries are rife. Also, added risk of knee ankle injuries caused by footstraps trapping legs are also more likely. And to be perfectly honest I dont like the thought of getting dragged face first through shells, paths etc with a buggy on top of me.

3) Buggying without a seatbelt is the best way to learn. However I personally dont think any learner should be using a harness. Thus the safest combination of no harness and no seatbelt is achieved when learning. As experience improves, learning the implications of a harness (open loop) then closed loop with QR is essential before thinking about hooking into a buggy seatbelt.

4) With reference to my concussion. I dont think I was unconscious as such but I do have a 15 min lapse of memory. I do however remember juust after the accident. Not being able to reach my normal Seatbelt QR. But having seatbelt clips on the back i have three bright colour release points on mine. So my dad released the seatbelt. However before I had hit the Ground my Harness QR had been released and I remember landing the kite unhooked, with kev pegging it down for me. I dont know what the main reason for my injury was, apart from being fool hardy - the buggy may have played a part, it may also have saved my back as the back wheels hit instead of the base of my spine....

In conclusion. I think that there are risks to being hooked in to both a buggy and a kite. And I think that this thread would do well to be stickied in the noob's section for the main purpose of highlighting the pro's and con's and allowing people to make an Informed decision as to what set up the use, taking into consideration their abilities, equipment, the conditions and also their aims as a kiter .

After reading throught the all the posts (without yawning) Here is my conclusion.


GET A DIRTSURFER

After reading throught the all the posts (without yawning) Here is my conclusion.


GET A DIRTSURFER


which is the logical conclusion to any discussion!

oh and good balanced reply there james (not sarcastic i am afraid)